Comments on: A Semantic Breakdown of Restaurant Menus http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/ A resource for Web designers and developers to read about and discuss their craft. Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:29:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Jon http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1323 Jon Mon, 21 May 2007 12:35:57 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1323 @Julie: You're right in that definition lists show a specific relationship between a term and a description. The fact still remains, however, that each pairing is also contained in a single group as a list. Your arguments are quite strong in supporting that a menu could be considered tabular data, but definition lists seem to make a bit more sense to me, just as a personal preference however. Your comments have shown that it can be acceptable to use a <code>table</code> to mark up a menu, however. There are many time's that I'll use CSS to style a document so that some elements appear tabular even though they aren't, as the organization is usually aesthetically pleasing. I'm really glad you've included your thoughts here, and that helping you to come to your conclusion is completely great! @Julie: You’re right in that definition lists show a specific relationship between a term and a description. The fact still remains, however, that each pairing is also contained in a single group as a list. Your arguments are quite strong in supporting that a menu could be considered tabular data, but definition lists seem to make a bit more sense to me, just as a personal preference however. Your comments have shown that it can be acceptable to use a table to mark up a menu, however.

There are many time’s that I’ll use CSS to style a document so that some elements appear tabular even though they aren’t, as the organization is usually aesthetically pleasing.

I’m really glad you’ve included your thoughts here, and that helping you to come to your conclusion is completely great!

]]> By: Julie http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1316 Julie Sat, 19 May 2007 18:32:16 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1316 Definition lists, though, only show one relationship: the term and the definition. Tables, on the other hand, show two relationships: the rows and the columns. When you're looking at a menu it's equally likely that you'd want to scan "across" to see the price, or "down" to see the next item. Imagine the menu with CSS turned off: a definition list would be a lot harder to read than a table. I think that in the case of tabular data the presentation IS the content. The physical layout of the table gives meaning to the data within, and that's why XHTML provides th tags and so forth -- to allow visually-impaired users to "see" the structure of the table and therefore understand it. Regarding the print stylesheet -- and please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't done too many of them -- my understanding is that you're supposed to avoid the kind of CSS positioning that would be required to make a definition list look like... a table. Whew! I don't know about you, but I think I've convinced myself anyway. And it's a funny thing because I love definition lists and use them whenever I can. Go figure. :) Definition lists, though, only show one relationship: the term and the definition. Tables, on the other hand, show two relationships: the rows and the columns. When you’re looking at a menu it’s equally likely that you’d want to scan “across” to see the price, or “down” to see the next item. Imagine the menu with CSS turned off: a definition list would be a lot harder to read than a table. I think that in the case of tabular data the presentation IS the content. The physical layout of the table gives meaning to the data within, and that’s why XHTML provides th tags and so forth — to allow visually-impaired users to “see” the structure of the table and therefore understand it.

Regarding the print stylesheet — and please correct me if I’m wrong, I haven’t done too many of them — my understanding is that you’re supposed to avoid the kind of CSS positioning that would be required to make a definition list look like… a table.

Whew! I don’t know about you, but I think I’ve convinced myself anyway. And it’s a funny thing because I love definition lists and use them whenever I can. Go figure. :)

]]> By: Jon http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1326 Jon Thu, 17 May 2007 12:30:16 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1326 @Julie Hathaway: I'm really glad you found the article useful! Thinking about it, yes, I think that a menu could be considered tabular, should the proper headings be provided. Yes, tables are used to show data relationships, but on the same side of things, definition lists too show a relationship between pieces of data. In my personal opinion, I think a definition list better suits this particular example, but your idea is very well received. Regarding your worry about a print style, it should be no problem if you <a href="http://mondaybynoon.com/2006/05/01/beautify-your-print-css/" rel="nofollow">beautify your print CSS</a> :) @Julie Hathaway: I’m really glad you found the article useful! Thinking about it, yes, I think that a menu could be considered tabular, should the proper headings be provided. Yes, tables are used to show data relationships, but on the same side of things, definition lists too show a relationship between pieces of data. In my personal opinion, I think a definition list better suits this particular example, but your idea is very well received. Regarding your worry about a print style, it should be no problem if you beautify your print CSS :)

]]> By: Julie Hathaway http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1324 Julie Hathaway Wed, 16 May 2007 00:02:24 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1324 This article couldn't have been more timely for me. I'm actually working on a restaurant menu right now and trying to hash out (pun intended) the best way to mark it up. Definition lists intuitively make the most sense, for sure, but couldn't you also argue that it's tabular data? Isn't the true purpose of a table to show the relationship between pieces of data (such as items, prices, and descriptions)? Imagine if the page were completely unstyled. If you used definition lists the menu would be hard to understand, but if you use tables it would be obvious. I think that's a good clue that tables are appropriate. Also, I must confess, I'm worrying about the print stylesheet, which will be very simple if I use tables. This article couldn’t have been more timely for me. I’m actually working on a restaurant menu right now and trying to hash out (pun intended) the best way to mark it up. Definition lists intuitively make the most sense, for sure, but couldn’t you also argue that it’s tabular data? Isn’t the true purpose of a table to show the relationship between pieces of data (such as items, prices, and descriptions)? Imagine if the page were completely unstyled. If you used definition lists the menu would be hard to understand, but if you use tables it would be obvious. I think that’s a good clue that tables are appropriate. Also, I must confess, I’m worrying about the print stylesheet, which will be very simple if I use tables.

]]> By: Jon http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1317 Jon Tue, 15 May 2007 12:27:05 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1317 @Arjan Eising: That's a fantastic point, and you're illustrating exactly why I enjoy talking about semantics as much as I do! Your solution is absolutely acceptable, and also allows you to trim your markup at the same time. Thanks very much for offering your thoughts. @Alessandro Fulciniti: Wow, it's amusing how similar our conclusions were! I hadn't seen your article before but if I had I would have absolutely been sure to include it in my write-up. @Arjan Eising: That’s a fantastic point, and you’re illustrating exactly why I enjoy talking about semantics as much as I do! Your solution is absolutely acceptable, and also allows you to trim your markup at the same time. Thanks very much for offering your thoughts.

@Alessandro Fulciniti: Wow, it’s amusing how similar our conclusions were! I hadn’t seen your article before but if I had I would have absolutely been sure to include it in my write-up.

]]> By: Alessandro Fulciniti http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1318 Alessandro Fulciniti Mon, 14 May 2007 22:36:00 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1318 Jon, it's nice to see someone shares my same opinion to markup a restaurant menu.. a while ago I've written something about it in <a href="http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001622.php" rel="nofollow">How to style a Restaurant Menu</a>, which is, btw, more focused on the presentation and the CSS. Nice read indeed, thanks for sharing! Jon, it’s nice to see someone shares my same opinion to markup a restaurant menu.. a while ago I’ve written something about it in How to style a Restaurant Menu, which is, btw, more focused on the presentation and the CSS. Nice read indeed, thanks for sharing!

]]> By: Arjan Eising http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1320 Arjan Eising Mon, 14 May 2007 18:27:37 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1320 About semantic web documents, a class <code>description</code> is <em>too</em> semantic, I think. The second 'd' stands for description. I think the classname <code>price</code> is good, and with <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> the other <code>dd</code> can also be styled. About semantic web documents, a class description is too semantic, I think. The second ‘d’ stands for description. I think the classname price is good, and with CSS the other dd can also be styled.

]]> By: Jon http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1322 Jon Mon, 14 May 2007 15:46:18 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1322 @Si Jobling: I'm glad to hear you agree with my assessment. TV listings are another interesting real-world example to analyze. I'd like to take some time to think about the semantic value of television listings and perhaps write a piece on it in the near future if you wouldn't mind. @Si Jobling: I’m glad to hear you agree with my assessment. TV listings are another interesting real-world example to analyze. I’d like to take some time to think about the semantic value of television listings and perhaps write a piece on it in the near future if you wouldn’t mind.

]]> By: Jon http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1321 Jon Mon, 14 May 2007 15:44:57 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1321 @Simanek: I'm glad you found the article useful! @Simanek: I’m glad you found the article useful!

]]> By: Simanek http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1325 Simanek Mon, 14 May 2007 14:43:59 +0000 http://mondaybynoon.com/2007/05/14/a-semantic-breakdown-of-restaurant-menus/#comment-1325 Wow. I've never heard of definition lists. Interesting article and thanks for bringing my attention to what is apparently a little-used html element. Just when I thought I had a handle on xhtml. Wow. I’ve never heard of definition lists. Interesting article and thanks for bringing my attention to what is apparently a little-used html element. Just when I thought I had a handle on xhtml.

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